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Nomination of Julie Su to Serve as Secretary of Labor – Senate HELP

Senate Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee

Nomination of Julie Su to Serve as Secretary of Labor

Thursday, April 20, 2023

Topline

  • Democrats expressed their support for Su’s nomination and asked about apprenticeship and workforce development programs. Republicans voiced their opposition to Su’s nomination, citing concerns that she is biased against businesses.
  • Senators from both parties asked about independent contractors.

Witnesses

  • The Honorable Julie Su, Acting Secretary, U.S. Department of Labor

Opening Statements

Chairman Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.)

In his opening statement, Sanders discussed his strong support for Su’s nomination and said the debate over Su has nothing to do with her qualifications but everything to do with the fact that Su is a champion of the working class and will stand up to the forces of corporate greed. Sanders criticized large multinational corporations for spending millions of dollars on ugly ads to defeat Su’s nomination, explaining that they know Su is prepared to take on powerful special interests. He noted Su is supported by every major labor organization in the country.

Sanders called for a Labor Secretary who understands we must raise the minimum wage to a living wage, will make it easier for workers to join unions and collectively bargain for better wages, benefits, and working conditions, and understands we must end the international embarrassment of the U.S. being the only country on earth that does not guarantee paid family and medical leave. He also stressed the need for a Labor Secretary who will strongly enforce child labor laws. Sanders addressed Republican concerns over Su’s tenure overseeing pandemic unemployment insurance, noting they ignore the fact that the unemployment insurance fraud rate was higher in many other states with Republican governors and labor secretaries during the pandemic.

Ranking Member Bill Cassidy (R-La.)

In his opening statement, Cassidy said he did not think Su should be Secretary of Labor and called for a fair and unbiased Secretary of Labor who is not an activist. He discussed Su’s role as the chief enforcer of A.B. 5, which he described as a controversial law that dismantled the gig economy. Cassidy said Su has overseen the Biden Administration’s push to eliminate independent contracting to the detriment of workers and said he was interested to hear Su’s position on the Department of Labor’s (DOL) effort to uproot the franchise model, which employs over 8 million Americans.

Testimony

Julie Su, Acting Secretary, U.S. Department of Labor

In her testimony, Su discussed her belief that small business owners are the engines of our economy, citing the example of her parents. She said too many Americans still work full-time, year-round and are left in poverty.  Su pledged to work to ensure that hard work pays off for workers and small businesses.  She noted government has a meaningful role to play in providing support to the overwhelming majority of employers who play by the rules, including through workforce programs to provide training to give more workers access to quality jobs. Su discussed her work with Secretary Walsh to expand apprenticeships in in demand industries and the creation of the national youth employment strategy. She concluded by emphasizing her commitment to finding and expanding the vast areas of common ground between employers and employees and expanding compliance assistance for employers and employees.

Question & Answer

Independent Contractors

Cassidy asked if Su would refrain from trying to force a California A.B. 5 type of regulation on the rest of the country. Su said yes, noting the ABC test in California was first adopted by a unanimous California Supreme Court decision, written by a Republican-appointed chief justice. Cassidy asked if it is fair to say that A.B. 5 greatly expanded that decision. Su replied that she was not part of the California Legislature when they passed A.B. 5, adding that when the DOL issued its rule on independent contractor/employee classifications, they explicitly did not include the ABC test. She said only Congress can adopt the ABC test.

Sen. Patty Murray (D-Wash.) asked Su if the DOL already stated it does not have the authority under the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) to implement an ABC test, absent an act of Congress. Su said yes, to which Murray replied that she hoped her answer cleared things up for Republicans and would stop the fearmongering.

Sen. Ted Budd (R-N.C) cited Su’s record in California and asked if she would push policies that take away the independence of job creators. Su said no, adding that she would respect the authority of Congress. She noted bona fide independent contractors will always have a place in our economy.

Budd asked if Su believes that California’s A.B. 5 is a model for the Department of Labor’s policy. Su said the law was passed by the California Legislature and given to her to enforce. She added that she did not believe the ABC test is federal law and said she would not make it federal law unless Congress made it federal law.

Joint Employer Rule

Cassidy asked if Su would pursue changes to the joint employer rule. Su said she understood the importance of the franchise model and said there is not a joint employer rule on the DOL’s agenda. She added it will also not be on the agenda that comes out in June.

Sen. Roger Marshall (R-Kans.) asked if Su agreed that an employer should only be considered a joint employer if it directly, actually, and immediately exercises significant control over the primary elements of employment. Su said the joint employer test is a fact specific test.

Business Community

Sen. Mitt Romney (R-Utah) said Su meets with unions on a regular basis, but not with business associations. He said this greatly concerns him and suggests bias. Su said business leaders and associations who she’s worked with would paint a different story about her openness and emphasized her relationships with businesses. She said she knows there is a common ground between employers and employees.

Sen. Tammy Baldwin (D-Wisc.) asked Su to discuss the initiatives she worked on as Deputy Labor Secretary, including how she worked with industry. Su said she and Secretary Walsh spent a lot of time talking to employers and industry associations, especially about their workforce needs. She called for building capacity in communities to do trainings on a sector-wide basis, noting sector industry leaders are really important to that, and that she is meeting with those leaders.

Sen. Tommy Tuberville (R-Ala.) noted Su has a long history of activism on behalf of organized labor, and asked how she could assure critics that she would wear a different hat and be less of an activist if confirmed. Su said the employers and employer associations that she’s worked with can help round out this perception. She noted own personal background also gave her a front row seat to the incredible work of small business owners, who she called the lifeblood of our communities. Su affirmed her record demonstrates how to build big tables and bring employers and labor together.

Tuberville asked if Su had met with non-union businesses and groups in the last two years. Su said yes.

Sen. Tim Kaine (D-Va.) cited Sen. Romney’s allegations that Su only started to meet with business associations recently, and asked if it was true that Su met with businesses repeatedly during your two years as Deputy Secretary. Su said yes, citing frequent meetings with chambers of commerce, airlines, and other businesses. Kaine noted the Los Angeles Chamber of Commerce, one of the biggest chambers in the country, enthusiastically supports Su’s nomination.

Sen. Lisa Murkowski (R-Alaska) noted that while Su held 22 meetings with the EPA or climate-related advocacy groups, she had not held many meetings with industry groups.

Apprenticeships

Sanders asked Su to discuss her vision for strong apprenticeship programs for the country. Su said the DOL has dramatically expanded apprenticeships, adding over 4,600 new apprenticeship programs representing over 11,000 employers in the past two years. She noted these opportunities help job seekers get high quality skills training and help employers get the workers they need.

Sen. John Hickenlooper (D-Colo.) cited a previous conversation with Su about the need for rebranding apprenticeships, due to the current impediment of convincing students and their parents that apprenticeship would be a good fit. He asked Su to discuss the topic. Su noted she just had the same conversation with a large employer association and cited the need to rebrand some jobs and make them more accessible to communities. She said it’s imperative to make sure people know going to an apprenticeship program is just as valid as a four-year degree.

Sen. Maggie Hassan (D-N.H.) asked Su how she would increase access to workforce training and boost program completion. Su said this would be a top priority. She explained the DOL identified the need for skilled workers across industries, which is why they published an $80 million grant to expand training for nursing and expanded apprenticeships in trucking.

Baldwin asked how recent appropriations funding increases for apprenticeships have been used at the DOL and how they are impacting employers and smaller communities. Su said the DOL expanded apprenticeship programs in multiple industries, including 16,000 apprenticeships in cybersecurity.

For more information on this meeting, please click here.

For an archive of past SIFMA hearing coverage, please click here.